Looking for Mabel Normand

Madcap Mabel Normand

Milton Cohen & Mabel Normand


GALL & HONEY by Eddie Doherty



















1924 Court Appearance of Mabel



Transcript of Miss Normand's testimony[1]:


January 22, 1924


Los Angeles Court House



THE COURT: State your name, please.


THE WITNESS: May I sit down?


THE COURT: Yes.  State your name, please.  Just state your name in full.


            A. Mabel Normand


Attorney Shelley then took up the direct examination of the film star.


Q. Where do you reside, Miss Normand?


            A. 3089 West Seventh street.

Q. What is your occupation?


            A. Motion pictures.


Q. Do you know one Horace A. Greer, also known as Joe Kelley?


            A. Yes, sir.


Q. Did you know him on the first day of January, of this year?


            A. Yes, sir.


Q. Did you know one Courtland Dines on that day?


            A. Yes, sir.


Q. Do you know where Mr. Dines lived at that time--325B North Vermont street, in this city?


            A. Yes, sir, that is correct.


Q. What time did you first go there?


            A. I left my house about--after 5.


Q. And what time did you arrive at Dines' apartment?


            A. About--well, from the time it takes from where I live at 3089 West Seventh to South Vermont, where Mr. Dines resides. The exact time of that I cannot recall.


Q. And did you see Kelley or Greer at the time you first arrived at Dines' apartments?


            A. He drove me there.


Q. Now, did Greer stay there, or leave after he drove you there?


            A. No. He drove me there, and he was undressing my Christmas tree at my house, and I told him to come back and call for me, and also told him that perhaps Miss Purviance might come back to my house with me, so he left with the understanding that he was to come back for me in about an hour and a half; perhaps not that long.


Q. About what time was it you next saw Greer after he drove back to your house?


            A. It was about 45 minutes.


Q. And that would make it what o'clock?


            A. What?


Q. What time was it?


            A. It was still daylight when Joe, Mr. Kelley, drove me over to my house-- over to Mr. Dines' apartments. Then when I again saw him, it was not with the understanding of taking me home, only that he was to bring over a Christmas gift that Mr. Greer insisted upon.


Q. Do you fix the time when you knew Greer--you knew Greer as Kelley at that time, did you?


            A. Yes, he was going under the name of Kelley from the Pierce Arrow people.


Q. Was it dark when Greer came back to Dines' apartments?


            A. I don't remember.


Q. Do you remember--can you fix the time when he came back there?


            A. Yes—


Q. How long was he gone as nearly as you can remember?


            A. About--I was there about 45 minutes.



MR. SHELLY: I think it would be better, Your Honor, if we could draw a rough diagram, for the purpose of clearing up the testimony.


MR. HAHN: No objection to that, clarifying the situation.


THE COURT: You will find a blackboard back there.


SHELLY: The place marked "D" is a davenport just outside of the door; the place marked "T" is a table in the center of the room; the place marked "B" is the breakfast table; the place marked "H" is the door into the kitchen; the place marked "E" is the door into the bedroom; "C" is a closet; "J" is the bathroom, "I" is the door into the bathroom. Now, when Greer came back the second time--that is, when he came back the first time and after he drove away from there, where did you first see Greer?


            A. The bell rang and Mr. Dines asked who was there, and he said, "Joe." He was sitting at the little breakfast table, as near as I an remember, and Miss Purviance was in the bedroom and I got up.


Q. Where were you sitting at the time?


            A. On the davenport and I got up--oh, no, I am making a mistake. Mr. Greer came in and had this package—


Q. Wait a moment. When he said "Joe" did he then open the door or did somebody go to it?


            A. I am quite sure that Mr. Dines opened the door.


SHELLY: Tell us what was said and done from that time on.


            A. Well, Mr. Greer or Mr. Kelly, as I knew him, Joe, came with this package, which I had already telephoned for, because he was not to call for me for an hour and a half, and you will not allow me to tell that--of course, unfortunately, I am not allowed to tell that--


MR. HAHN: Just a moment, Miss Normand. We move that be stricken out as not responsive that you are not allowed to explain. We will allow everything to be explained legally.


THE COURT: It will be stricken out.


            A. I see. Well, he came in with a box, which included some military brushes  that Miss Purviance had given him Christmas Day, and there was this talk between them. I got up and went over and spoke to Miss Purviance in the door.


Q. You mean the door "E"?


            A. The door where the bedroom was and asked her for her powder puff. She was powdering her face and all that sort of thing, and the next thing I heard were shots. I thought they were firecrackers and I made absolutely no objection to them because I am rather used to firecrackers and all that sort of thing around the studio.


Q. Now, when you got up off the davenport had Joe Greer come into the room?


            A. Yes, he was there, and he was speaking with Mr. Dines.


Q. How far had Joe come into the room, when you turned and walked away towards the bedroom?


            A. Well, I couldn't say just as near. He was already in conversation with Mr. Dines.


Q. Did Dines close the door when Joe—


            A. I don't remember that.


Q. Were you in the living room at the time you heard the shots?


            A. No; I was in the room that goes between--in the bedroom and the living room--between the two doors.


Q. From the time that Greer came into the room, how long was it before you got up off the davenport and started into the bedroom?


            A. Well, I remember Joe coming in, and about, I had delivered the message over the telephone to give him, the box of brushes, to Mr. Dines. Mr. Dines started to talk to Joe. What their conversation was, I don't know because I got up—


THE COURT: Just a moment. You are volunteering too much, Miss Normand. Will you read the question, Mr. Reporter?


MR. HAHN: We are not objecting to that question.


THE COURT: Well, I am, I don't want to encumber the record.


A.   It was not a second.


MR. SHELLY: Then from the time until the shots were fired, you did not look toward Greer or Dines?


            A. No, sir.


Q. When you first looked toward them, what was their position; how far inside the door was Greer?


            A. Mr. Greer wasn't there. Mr. Dines was all full of blood and was like this (indicating).


Q. Wait a minute; just go back to when Greer came in, that is what I am asking now. When Greer first came into the room there, how far into the room did he go when you last saw him?


            A. Well, he was quite close to Mr. Dines, and handing him the package.


Q. And that was the last you saw of him?


            A. That was the last I saw of him.


Q. After the shots were fired, did you look toward where Greer and Dines were?


            A. No, because I did not first--it never entered my mind to look.


MR. HAHN: Just a moment. We move that that be stricken out as not responsive.


THE COURT: The last part will be stricken out.


MR. SHELLEY: How soon was it that you saw Greer or Dines after that?


            A. I did not see Mr. Greer. I saw Mr. Dines like this (illustrating).


Q. How soon was that after you heard the shots fired?


            A. Well, it must have been, just as soon as we took the thing seriously; that is, there must have been something happened—


MR. HAHN: Just a minute. We move that that be stricken out as a conclusion.


THE COURT: Stricken out. State the time if you can.


MR. SHELLEY: Within a few seconds or minutes, or how long?


            A. Seconds.


Q. Where was Dines after you saw him after the shots were fired?


            A. He was sort of staggering.

Q. Where?


            A. Near the window.


Q. Which window, will you illustrate.


            A. The back part of his apartment. I mean by that that there is a front and a back.


Q. Was he near the table, the dishes, the breakfast table?


            A. Well, I think so.


Q. This is entrance, you know (indicating on diagram); there is the bedroom.


            A. Yes, I know.  He was near that.


Q. Back toward the kitchen?


            A. No, because he was coming sort of toward us, and he said, I have this—


MR. HAHN:  Just a minute. We object upon the ground it is hearsay, what he said, in the absence of the defendant.


MR. SHELLEY: Greer wasn't there at that time, I take it?


            A. No, he was not.  I didn't see Mr. Greer.


Q. Was he close or not, do you remember, to the outside door?


            A. He was close, but it was locked or half opened.


Q. During your visit, just before and up to the time that you heard the shots fired, was there anyone else in that apartment except you and Dines?


            A. Mr. Dines.


Q. When you saw Greer immediately after the shots were fired, what was his condition?


            A. I did not see Mr. Greer after the shots were fired.


Q. Mr. Dines?


            A. Mr. Dines was leaning over like this (illustrating) holding himself like this and all full of blood.


Q. And what part of his body was he holding?


            A. Up here, on the top part (indicating).


Q. Had his hands up to his breast?


            A. Yes.


Q. I will show you a small automatic pistol, and ask you if you ever saw that before.


            A. I have seen it, yes.  I have had it for six years.


MR. SHELLEY: You recognize the pistol then, do you?


            A. I don't know.


Q. Well, I mean did you have one similar to that?


MR. CONLIN: Object to that as incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial.


A.   I told you I can't remember. All I am telling you—


MR. HAHN: Wait a minute, madam. Please don't volunteer an answer.


MR. SHELLEY: We ask that this be marked plaintiff's exhibit A.


MR. CONLIN: Objected to as for identification.


THE COURT: It may be marked for identification.


MR. SHELLEY: Did you have an automatic pistol similar in appearance to that, previous to the time that your were in Dines' apartment?


            A. Yes, for years--for six years.


Q. Where was it the last time you saw that automatic pistol that you had previous to the time that you were at Dines' apartments?


            A. A little stand near my bed, a little stand; a little night stand that has a lamp, you know.


Q. Do you remember how long before you were at Dines' apartments or the last time you saw that gun?


            A. I haven't seen it or taken notice of it for months and months.


Q. Well, as far as you know it was there on that day?


MR. HAHN: Wait a minute. Objected to on the ground--wait a minute, Miss Normand. We object to that on the ground it is leading and suggestive.


THE COURT: Objection sustained.


MR. SHELLEY: How long previous to this time had you known Mr. Dines?

            A. I have known him ever since Miss Purviance introduced me to him, which was about, perhaps a year ago.


Q. How long had you known Miss Purviance?

MR. HAHN: We will object to that on the ground it is incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial, and nothing to do with this case as to how long she knew Miss Purviance.


THE COURT: Overruled.  You may answer.


            A. I have known Miss Purviance for years.


Q. How long had you known Greer.


            A. The day after my birthday, which was November 10, and on the 11th I engaged him. That was the first time I met Mr. Greer.


Q. That was 1923?


            A. Yes, sir.


Q. Did you have any conversation with Greer when he first drove you to the apartment?


            A. None whatsoever, except to call for me later.


Q. What was that conversation?


            A. It was this, to undress my Christmas tree, which he was doing when I was leaving, and when I left him at Mr. Dines' apartment--why "I have a long way to walk up," I said, "perhaps I will bring Miss Purviance back with me. I don't know what they're going to do tonight--Miss Purviance--because I was going to be alone tonight."


Q. That was what you said to Greer, was it?


            A. I think so.


Q. Now, did you say anything to him about when he was to come back?


            A. No, I did not.


MR. SHELLY: I show you a box containing some brushes and a comb, and ask if  you ever saw them before, as far as you know.


            A. Yes. I believe I did Christmas day but I paid no attention to it.


Q. When Greer came to the apartments what size of bundle did he have with him?


            A. A small box like that, wrapped in white paper with the name on it or something like that.


Q. Did you look at the name?


            A. I could recognize it if you would show it to me.


Q. I mean, did you at the time?


            A. No, indeed I did not.


MR. HAHN: I move that answer to the last question be stricken out. If she did not see the name on the package, it is a dead moral certainty that she don't know that it was there.


THE COURT: Strike it out.


MR. SHELLEY: I show you a piece of white wrapping paper with some writing on it and ask you if you are familiar with that writing?


            A. Yes. That is Mrs. Burns' writing. That is paper from my house.


Q. Mrs. Edith Burns?


            A. Yes, sir.


Q. And she was at that time your housekeeper and companion?


            A. No, not exactly. She was just one who would come over and stay at my house. She had no other place to go and she would stay. I have my housekeeper and my maid and everything else that are all with me.


Q. Is this piece of paper that was around the package that Greer had at the time he came back similar in appearance to the paper I have just shown you?


            A. Yes, sir. It seems to be the same piece of paper. It seems to be the same piece that was around that box.


Q. Previous to the time you went to Dines' apartments that afternoon had you seen Mrs. Edith Burns?


            A. Yes. She was in my house all day.


Q. She was at your house when you left, then?


            A. Yes, all day.  She had slept there the night previous, New Year's Eve.


Q. Between the time you first went to Dines' apartments and the time you heard the shots fired, did you or Dines talk over the telephone from Dines' apartments?


            A. Yes, sir, we did.


Q. Who talked first?


            A. I did, because when I arrived—


Q. Did you ring up some one, or did some one ring you up?


            A. No, I telephoned.


Q. During that time did any one else talk over the phone from the Dines apartment?


            A. Yes, Mr. Dines did, and finished the conversation with Mrs. Burns which I did not hear.


Attorney Hahn then took up the cross-examination of Miss Normand. His first question was: Miss Normand, directing your attention to this map, or diagram, rather, we understood you to testify on direct examination that Mr. Dines was about here; indicated by the letter B; is that right?


A.   What does the letter B mean?  Is that the bed?


THE COURT: The breakfast room.


MR. HAHN: No, it does not mean the breakfast room.


A.   There is no breakfast room in the house.


MR. SHELLEY: The letter B is the breakfast table.


MR. HAHN: The breakfast table was at the back end of the room, is that right, going towards the kitchen?


            A. Going towards the kitchen.


Q. Going towards the kitchen?


            A. Yes, sir.


Q. We have here a diagram that to go to the kitchen you have to go around a wall and come around here to the letter E, which is the entrance into the kitchen?


MR. SHELLEY: The letter E is the bedroom.


MR. HAHN: Where is the kitchen entrance?


            A. There is the breakfast table, and there is a swinging door that leads right into the kitchen.


Q. A swinging door goes through this wall?


            A. I don't know.  It could not go through the wall.


Q. How do you go into the kitchen; by going around a wall?


            A. Right next to it.


Q. Right next to it?


            A. Yes, sir, it is right next to it.


Q. From the position you have indicated here, so far as you can remember, could you see Greer and Dines from the position where you were standing?


            A. No, I did not.


Q. That is good.  You did not see them at all, what transpired between the two parties?


            A. No, I did not.


Q. You did not see what Mr. Dines had in his hands all the time, did you?


            A. No, sir.


Q. You did not pay any attention?


            A. I did not see it.


Q. You were busy with Mr. Dines [sic], is that right?


            A. Yes, sir.


Q. And that was your purpose in going into the bedroom, was to go and see Mr. Dines [sic]?


            A. Yes, sir.


Q. And you really don't know how long they did argue there, do you?


            A. No, I don't.


Q. It is your impression that it was a few seconds, is that right?

            A. Yes, sir.


Q. But you could not, under oath, say how long it did take to argue between  them?


            A. No, sir.


Q. And you could not say what Mr. Dines did say to Greer, and Mr. Greer say to Mr. Dines?


            A. No, sir.


Q. And you don't know whether Mr. Dines threw a bottle at him, or not?


            A. No, sir.


MR HAHN: Thank you, that is all.


On redirect examination Mr. Shelley asked: Miss Normand, calling your attention to exhibit C, in the center of the living room there, at the time that you left the davenport and walked to the bedroom, when Greer had just come in the room, did you notice what was on that table C, or had you noticed before that time?


            A. No, sir, I did not.


Q. Did you notice whether or not there was a large bottle on that table?


MR. HAHN: I object to that as leading and suggestive.  She said she did not remember.


THE COURT: Objection sustained.


MR. SHELLEY: Now, if the court please, a witness may say that they did not notice particularly what was on a table, and still they may know that it is not a hobby horse on that table, or something that is a noticeable object there, so I think I may ask this witness the question I asked, did she notice whether or not there was a bottle on that table.


MR. HAHN: Miss Normand is an intelligent witness.


MR. SHELLEY: And Mr. Hahn is an intelligent attorney, and there are some other intelligent people sitting in the court room. I insist, your Honor, I have a right to ask her whether or not she noticed a large bottle on that table.


MR. HAHN: We also insist that it is leading and suggestive and we are willing  to abide by the court's decision.


MR. SHELLEY: Counsel for the defense has brought out the point, you did not notice Dines throw a bottle at Greer. Now we, the People, certainly have the right to ask this witness whether or not there was such an object as that in plain view on the table, before this witness.


MR. CONLIN: He may have had it in his pocket.


THE COURT: I think it would be proper for you to ask this witness if there was a bottle of any kind in that room.


MR. HAHN: But she testified that she did not see anything on that table.


MR. SHELLEY: My question was did she notice anything particularly.


THE COURT: I will sustain the objection to the question as asked.


MR. SHELLEY: As I understand, then, the ruling of your honor, refuses to let me ask the witness whether she noticed a bottle on the table?


THE COURT: No; you can't ask her if she noticed a bottle there in that room. I think that would be a proper question, inasmuch as the bottle has been brought out here, but to call her attention to any particular place after she said she didn't remember anything of that bottle, or words to that effect, wouldn't be proper.


MR. SHELLEY: At any time after Greer came back the second time and Dines went to the door, did you see Dines with a bottle in his hand?


A.   No, sir.


MR. SHELLEY: During the time that Greer and Dines were there, and when Greer

 came back the second time, did you see in the living room any bottle?


A.   No; I didn't notice any bottle.


MR. SHELLEY: That is all.


MR. HAHN: Miss Normand, let me ask you one question, with your Honor's permission.  As I understood from cross examination that you didn't pay any attention as to whether there were any bottles around there?


            A. I did not.


Q. And you could not say that there were not bottles?


            A. No, sir, I cannot.


Q. And as I understood you, you don't know whether Mr. Dines threw a bottle at Greer or not?


            A. No, sir; I never saw that part.


MR. HAHN: You never saw that part. Thank you very much. That is all.


MR. SHELLEY: Was there anything on the table at that time? That is, the table in the center of the room?


            A. No, the table is on the side of the room.


Q. Now, on that table in the center of the room, the table T, was there at the time that Greer came back anything that you remember on that table?


            A. No, there were a lot of little cigarette ends, which were all over the place, but on the table I saw nothing, and then I don't remember—


Q. On the table B, in the kitchen, at the time that Greer came beck the second time, do you remember what was on that table?


            A. I do not.


MR. SHELLEY: That is all.


MR. HAHN: That is all.


THE COURT: Miss Normand, did you see Mr. Greer enter the room at all that evening just before the shots were fired?


            A. No, sir, I don't remember.


Q. Did you see him there at the door?


            A. No, your honor, because the door bell rang and I heard Mr. Dines say, "Just a minute."


Q. You didn't see Mr. Greer at all then immediately after the shots?


            A. No, sir--no, sir, I didn't, your honor.  I just can't recall.


Q. Did you see him?


            A. After that I just can't recall, but—


Q. Did you see him?


            A. Because they were all talking about everything New Year's, you know.


Q. Who do you mean by "all"?


            A. Mr. Dines, Miss Purviance, just before she had entered the other room, they were all talking about people and New Year's Eve.


Q. Mr. Dines went back to the breakfast table, and you went to him.


            A. No. When the door bell rang he was standing, it seemed to me, so far as I can recall, near the breakfast table.


Q. And you were where?


            A. I was sitting on that couch. The door bell rang.  Mr. Dines said, "Joe, who is it?" and Joe answered—


MR. CONLIN: Just a minute, object to that as a conclusion of the witness and incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial unless she is qualified to know his voice.


THE COURT: All right. What was said by the party at the door?


A.   Not a thing.




A.   Yes, Mr. Greer.


MR. CONLIN: Object to that and move that the answer be stricken as not responsive.


THE COURT: Stricken out.  Did you recognize the voice of the person who said, "Joe"?


            A. Well, I think I ought to be rather used to it.


Q. Did you recognize who was there?


            A. Well, I think I did.


Q. And who was there?


            A. Joe.


Q. That is the defendant here?


            A. Yes, sir.


Q. But you didn't see him at all?


            A. No, I didn't.


Q. All right. Just at what point did you leave the room, or did you leave the room first?


            A. No, Mr. Dines went to the door.  Mr. Greer had a box.


Q. No, whoever it was, did you see him with the box?


            A. Yes, I did. I saw him with the box. I mean--I don't know whether I saw him with the box or not. Anyway, I got up and went over and spoke to Mr. Dines, who was in the room.


Q. Now, we want to know did you see him, or did you not see the defendant? That is what I want to know.


            A. Yes, I did. I saw Joe in there.


Q. Where was he? That is all right. Now where was he?


            A. Entering the door with the box like this (illustrating).


Q. And where, at that time, was Mr. Dines?


            A. Near the table. Mr. Dines at that time was at the table.


Q. All right, take the chalk and show us now; make a mark where each one of them was?


            A. I can't draw a picture, your honor.


Q. You can make a cross?


            A. I can make it where it is.


Q. Where the figure A is, is the door, supposed to be the entrance to the building?


            A. Well, this place (indicating on diagram).


Q. All right, show us where Mr. Greer was when you saw him with the box?


            A. He was there (indicating on diagram).


Q. All right. Now, show us where Mr. Dines was at the same time?


            A. Now, what does D mean?


Q. That is where you were sitting; that is the couch.


            A. All right, that is fine.  T for Tommy is what?


Q. That is the table.


            A. And B is the little breakfast table (indicating on diagram).


Q. Well, now let us know where you saw him?


            A. Well, as near as I can recollect, I am sure he was near there, because I—


Q. All right, never mind why.


            A. I got up, and I went--where is the bedroom?


Q. Where you see the D there is the door.


            A. I went that way (indicating on diagram).


Q. All right. Now, about how far is it from where you saw Mr. Greer, to where you saw him at that time?


            A. From here to where that gentleman is sitting, your honor.


THE COURT: How far is that, counsel?


MR. CONLIN: About twelve feet.


MR. HAHN: About twelve or fifteen feet.


THE COURT: Is that stipulated?


MR. SHELLEY: Ten to fifteen feet.


MR. HAHN: Ten to fifteen feet, something like that.


THE COURT: Did you leave the room?


            A. Yes, Joe—


Q. You went into the bedroom, then?


            A. Into the bedroom.


Q. Where were you when you heard these shots?


            A. Still in the doorway.


Q. Just where?


            A. Where is the doorway?  Because I am getting a little mixed up on that.


Q. Where E is.


            A. There is the doorway (indicating on diagram). There is where I was.


Q. (Indicating.) This is the bedroom.


            A. All right, that is where Miss Purviance was.


Q. Did you meet her?


            A. Yes, I did.


Q. And how far apart were you and Miss Purviance at that time?


            A. Well, there is a closet—


Q. Just answer the question. How far apart were you?


            A. Well, just like this (illustrating); because that is a long mirror—


Q. Four or five feet?


            A. I can't tell the feet.  Like this, (illustrating).


THE COURT: How far is that, counsel?


MR. CONLIN: About four feet.


THE COURT: Is that all right, Mr. District Attorney?


MR. HEINECKE: About four feet.


THE COURT: All right.


Q. And you and Miss Purviance were talking?


            A. Yes, talking. Back here, I was this way (indicating).


Q. Which way was your back--towards Mr. Greer?


            A. Yes, sir.


Q. At the time the shots were fired?


            A. Yes, your Honor.


Q. And you went right on talking with Miss Purviance, didn't turn round, for some seconds?


            A. I thought they were firecrackers—


Q. Is that correct?


            A. Absolutely correct.


Q. But when did--when you did look around, where was Dines?


            A. He was near the table.


Q. Show us on the map.


            A. Oh! Is that the table (indicating)?


Q. Yes, that is the table.


            A. Well, it seems to me--we were so excited when we saw the blood—


Q. Never mind, now.


            A. That is the only way I can explain, your Honor.


Q. Don't explain it at all. Show us.


            A. It seemed as if he was coming towards us, and we both rushed towards him, and he was all bent over like this (illustrating).


Q. All right; you have told us that. Now, where was Mr. Greer--do you know?


            A. I didn't see Mr. Greer.


Q. He had gone?


            A. He had already left.


THE COURT: That is all. Any further questions?


MR. CONLIN: Do you know whether Mr. Greer had left the room before these reports like firecrackers went off?


            A. No, sir; I do not.


Q. How long prior to the time of these shots did you see Mr. Greer?


            A. Well, it all happened so quickly, I can't recall that, or answer it correctly.


Q. Well, do you know whether it was one minute, or two minutes, or three minutes or how long it was?


            A. Hearing these reports like firecrackers?


Q. When you came out of the bedroom?


            A. Well, I know it was—


Q. You came out of the bedroom?



            A. Well, I know it was--I asked Miss Purviance, I had time to ask her for her powder puff.


Q. In other words--did you use the powder puff?


            A. No, I asked her for it. She was using it before that long mirror which goes in the closet.


Q. You stood in the doorway until Miss Purviance got through using it?


            A. I never used it, because in the meantime the shots were fired.


Q. Well, when you went into the bedroom--or when you were standing in the door?


            A. I was standing in the doorway.


Q. You couldn't see what happened in the room, could you, what happened between Mr. Dines and Mr. Greer?


            A. I couldn't see.


Q. Well, then, you don't know how long Mr. Dines and Mr. Greer were talking, do you?


            A. I do not.


Q. It may have been two or three or four minutes, may it not?


            A. It was longer, perhaps.


MR. SHELLEY: Did you, after the shots were fired, when you came back in, or at any time before you left the apartment, see an automatic revolver?


A.   No, sir.


MR. HAHN: Just a minute--she has answered, "No, sir," all right. She said,"no."


MR. SHELLEY: That is all.


MR. HEINECKE: Another question, Miss Normand. You stated when you went in there, you saw Mr. Dines and he was standing in this position (illustrating). Now you mean he was bent over and had both hands on his chest?


            A. I can't answer that correctly because I know he was this way  (illustrating), all full of blood.


Q. Now, you are indicating that he was stooping with his head over?


            A. Yes.


Q. And with his hands on his chest?


            A. And he said, "I have been plugged"--that is the only way I remember.


MR. HAHN: Wait a minute, madam, wait a minute. Objected to as hearsay, what he said, and no proper foundation laid.  It hasn't been shown that Greer  was there.


THE WITNESS: No, Mr. Greer wasn't there.


THE COURT: The objection is overruled.


THE WITNESS: Pardon me.


THE COURT: I think that is part of the res gestae--near enough.


Q. Will you indicate, if you can state, will you approximate about how far you were standing from Mr. Greer, when you saw him in the doorway?


            A. I wasn't standing; I was sitting, your honor, when Mr. Greer came in, and got up because he had a box in his hands for Mr. Dines, and then I left for the bedroom door to speak to Miss Purviance and ask for her powder box.


Q. What I want to fix is the distance between the point where Mr. Greer spoke, and when you went to the door to see Miss Purviance. The question is how far it would be from the point where Mr. Greer stopped, to where you were talking to Miss Purviance, at the door of the bedroom?


            A. Here is your door (indicating on diagram), and about that man's shoes there (indicating), about that far is where Mr. Dines was.


Q. Which man?


            A. I don't know that man.


MR. SHELLEY: Eight or nine feet?


MR. HAHN: Eight or nine feet.


THE COURT: All right.


MR. HEINECKE: What did you and Miss Purviance do immediately after you saw his condition?


MR. CONLIN: Objected to as incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial, leading and suggestive, assuming a state of facts not in evidence.


MR. HEINECKE: If anything.


MR. CONLIN: No bearing on this defendant.


THE COURT: Overruled.


MR. HAHN: If your honor please, Miss Purviance and Miss Normand's actions, what they did in the absence of the defendant are prejudicial to the defendant. I don't know what she may state. It has nothing to do with the issues in this case. The question is very broad. You might as well ask her what she did at midnight.


THE COURT: The question is what she immediately did. I don't think it is prejudicial at all. I shall not allow the witness to go into any detailed statement of what happened for any extended period afterwards, but what happened immediately, I think is material.


MR. HAHN: Whether the defendant was there or not?


THE COURT: Yes, you may answer.


Q. What did you do immediately after?


            A. Why, we rushed out of the room and saw Mr. Dines in this condition. We both, Miss Purviance and I, took his arms on each side, and took him into the bedroom and put him on the bed.


THE COURT: I think that answers it.


MR. HAHN: Just a minute.


THE COURT: And put him on the bed?


A.   On the bed.


MR. HEINECKE: That is all.


Attorney Hahn, on re-cross examination, asked: You don't remember what you did immediately after the shooting, do you?


            A. Yes.  I do.  I remember I turned around after I heard what I thought were firecrackers and saw Mr. Dines in this condition.


Q. Why, you said a few minutes ago it was probably four or five minutes?


            A. Well, we were talking, and I didn't pay much attention to it, but as soon as we did see the condition that Mr. Dines was in, we both ran to him, and Miss Purviance took him on one side and I took him on the other side and we took him into the bedroom.


THE COURT: You heard no conversation between Dines and Greer either before or after the shooting?


A.   No, your honor.


MR. HAHN: You really don't remember whether it was four or five minutes or four or five seconds that you walked out of that bedroom with Miss Purviance, do you.


A.   No, I don't.


MR. CONLIN: This four or five minutes that you testified having elapsed, do you mean that it was four or five minutes between the time that Mr. Greer came into the apartment and was talking with Mr. Dines four or five minutes, or was it four or five minutes from the time the firecrackers  went off and you turned around and saw Mr. Dines?


MR. SHELLEY: We will object to that as immaterial.


            A. I can't give you the absolute detailed time except I got up from the couch and walked to the bedroom door and stood and talked to Miss Purviance, and the next thing I heard was the shots; the exact time I don't know.


MR. CONLIN: That is all.



[1] Los Angeles Examiner, January 22, 1924       

               Miss Normand Tells Court Own Story of Rich Clubman's Shooting

                      Mabel Normand was the only witness at the morning session of Justice Handy's court yesterday when Horace Greer was arraigned in connection with the shooting of Courtland Dines, Denver clubman, on New Year's Day.

               She was called to the stand as soon as the hearing opened.  Before beginning her testimony, Justice Hanby warned the spectators that unless there was absolute quiet he would clear the courtroom.






Information on Courtland Dines




DENVER, March 1. (Exclusive) – The gay and many times hectic career of Courtland Dines, one-time favored friend of Edna Purviance and the latte Mabel Normand, has ended.

     A petition asserting he is “incapable of raking care of his property” was filed in County Court here this week and tonight Dines, wealthy clubman and social favorite, is confined in the Colorado Springs Psychopathic Hospital.

     Eugene Dines, his brother, filed the petition.  The commitment was signed by County Judge Luxford and a few minutes later “Court” was taken into custody at the Brown Palace Hotel.

     Courtland Dines, first came into national prominence when Mabel Normand’s chauffeur shot him through the chest while he, Mabel and Edna Purviance were engaged in a holiday celebration at Hollywood in January 1924.

     For a time it was feared he would die as pneumonia complicated Dines condition.  He recovered, however, and returned to Denver, later marrying a society girl here, who since has divorced him.

     Only a few days ago Dines was released from a local hospital where he had been a patient since February 12.  While at the Tabernash (Colo) ranch of W. R. Freman, president of the Denver and Salt Lake Railway, he fell against a stairway and fractured his left shoulder.

     The accident occurred while he was in the throes of a convulsion brought on by a kidney ailment.

     Dines is a son of the late Tyson Dines, once president of the Midwest Refining Company, now a unit of the Standard Oil of Indiana.  His father was a pioneer citizen here.